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MK @marykatefain

Who wants to go vegan and stop hurting animals but doesn't know where to start??? I will help you!!!

Jun 02, 2017, 03:45 ยท Tusky ยท 14 ยท 14

@marykatefain Okay, start with ๐Ÿญ , since you listed it. Presumably humans are not eating them. How do you deal with them? House mice are social and commensal. Indoor home range only 6 to 30 ft from nest. Supposing I can humanely trap them, am I not now morally responsible for their relocation? What can be done at scale that does not result in them a) infesting someone else's property, or b) dying a worse death from predation, starvation, or exposure?

@ntk Hey! So I also have had this moral dilemma. I live in a city with a cat, and there are tons of other cats around our house, so a mouse here doesn't really stand much of a chance. We caught one in the winter, and I built a home for him and he became our roommate. I never could decide whether it was better to let him go or keep him...

I think at this point I lean towards keep them safe until the weather is nice, then release them in the wild away from the city.

@ntk Oh, important if you do catch a mouse though to make sure he is a male. If she is female she may have babies somewhere so you'd be better off just letter her go. Females also are the social ones and need to be with other females to be happy. Males on the other hand prefer to be alone, so they are okay to keep alone until it is safe to release them.

Does that help at all?

@marykatefain I appreciate your answer, but it doesn't address my concerns. I love cats, and mice are much closer relatives to humans than cats, and I hate to kill a little mouse, but fact cats are much less humane in dispatching mice than I am when I have to.
Your characterization of male house mice as nonsocial is wrong. Male mice live in a nest with multiple females and their young, and aggressively defend the nest from intruders. They don't want other adult males.

@marykatefain and relocating a house mouse from its nest into the wild is a death sentence. I can try to tell myself "oh, at least its free now, maybe it will be okay" but that's dishonest. When I caught it, that mouse was scared as shit and believed it was going to die. I could have followed through and given it a quick death, but instead it's going to cower alone in a hostile environment removed from its family until it starves or more likely, is eaten.

@ntk Then keeping them safe in the home is probably your best option, although I'm not sure I agree that they would be unable to take care of themselves.

@ntk Also... This is a bit of a silly argument since it affects such a small number if mice and is a moral gray area. The main reason I mentioned rice is because of vivisection, of which mice are some of the main victims. The best way to help mice is to not support products tested on animals and to fight against vivisection! :)

@marykatefain Okay, well the main reason I am not vegan is because there are moral gray areas and vegan discourse tends to be in absolutes.
Neutering mice and building them habitats is not a realistic solution for most people.
And I am definitely opposed to unnecessary, inhumane vivisection but I've spent enough of my life around scientists to know that mouse models are in fact vital to a lot of life-saving research and there is no readily available substitute.

@ntk That's so silly. There are a million ways in which being vegan is NOT a gray area, esp regarding our food choices. Why choose to hurt so many animals just because there a couple gray area when dealing with non-domesticated animals? That's such flawed logic...

Also, I used to do animal testing on rats for neuroscience and am very familiar with vivisection and it's practices and results. I promise it is is niether necessary nor effective in modern research.

@ntk I mean... "I don't know what the most ethical thing to do in one case is, therefore I must do the least ethical thing in every other case"?? Come onnnn lol ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚

@ntk I mean... "I don't know what the most ethical thing to do in one case is, therefore I must do the least ethical thing in every other case"?? Come onnnn lol ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚

@marykatefain Wait, so if I don't get with the whole vegan program, now I'm choosing to do the least ethical thing in every other case? Do you not see the issue with that statement?
I was strict ovo-lacto veg for well over a decade. I still don't eat ๐Ÿฎ ๐Ÿท ๐Ÿ”, avoid leather, not religiously, and substitute a lot of soy for dairy. I've never been "vegan." I'm unenlightened and making the least ethical choices?

@marykatefain I'm was asking an honest question not trying to argue, I've had to deal with mice in Philly no less. I don't think it's silly, you should know that far more mice are killed in household infestations than in labs, and vastly more are killed in agriculture, food storage/processing and restaurant pest control, every year than probably the entire history of vivisection. Relocating those mice would be impossible.

@marykatefain and I can't speak to your own work but there is a lot of in situ work on disease process and therapies that there is no effective substitute for animal models.
As for consumer products, a lot of "not tested on animals" products are just high-end stuff that can afford the certification. I don't think it's ethical to tell a low-income person that shopping at Target instead of the Body Shop they're committing a sin, or that they should keep mice in their house.

@ntk Best guess we have on number of mice used in labs annually is over 100 million (but they are unregulated under the animal welfare act so it is hard to be sure).

I would be 99% willing to bet that this is wayyyy more than are trapped and killed in homes annually.

@ntk It's actually not that hard to find products that aren't tested on animals at an affordable price. Many common brands that you can get at Target are not tested on animals.

It's true that some may be more expensive, but if someone honestly can not afford to buy soap that is $.50 cheaper than they are not really who I am addressing my concerns to.

@ntk Also, just on a personal note, as someone who has lived below the poverty line for the majority of my life - I have never had an issue buying vegan food or products. It just takes a little bit of effort to educate yourself and read some labels. Really not that hard in my experience. If someone is looking for affordable brands that don't test on animals I could recommend one for nearly every type of thing I use regularly.

@ntk Lol wait, are you in Philly??? Me too! Would love to meet up IRL and have this talk in person since there's a lot of messages to keep up with :D

@marykatefain No, was there with the fam last weekend. I went to Penn.

@ntk It may be hard to figure out what the right thing g to do for wild mice is, but it's SUPER easy to help the mice we have domesticated for labs!

@marykatefain Commensal house mice are not wild. They are adapted for commensality.

@ntk off to the day job now! Ttyl! :)

@ntk True, I meant they would be comfortable living alone without a friend. Obviously a male would be fine with a female, but you'd have to make sure someone was "fixed" haha.

Anyways, like I said, I would recommendโ€‹ keeping the mouse in a large home built for the mouse until you can find a safe place to release them.

Here's a pic of the DIY habitat we built:

@ntk @marykatefain Why would veganism require trapping all mice in houses? That makes no sense to me. Let them be, go on about your life. Maybe don't get a cat. No need to trap/relocate.

@dixongexpat @marykatefain Tell that to your landlord and/or social services. If you've never been in that situation, then you have no business moralizing about it to those who have.

@marykatefain @dixongexpat also, uncontrolled mice can spread disease, chew wires and start fires.

@dixongexpat @normat42 @marykatefain Glenn, maybe try being a little more polite to different thinkers like Norm before shooting off your mouth? You might even learn something.

@ntk @normat42 @marykatefain Learn something??? Nathan, did you even click the link he sent out? A page full of wacky, conspiracy shit that doesn't even make sense! Book of Enoch bullshit? What's there to be polite about? No, just no...

@dixongexpat @normat42 @marykatefain My mama once told me that if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't give you license to go shitting on Norm. An apology would be in order.

@ntk @dixongexpat @normat42 Omg what is happening on this thread :joy: :joy: :joy:

@ntk @normat42 @marykatefain ok, so here is my apology - I apologize to anyone who has been drug into this conversation for what you are about to read...

Nathan - you and Norman can both go fuck off! Life is too short to put up with this level of crazy. Norman doesn't make sense to any rational, sane human. He is spouting nonsensical shit. I defy anyone to follow his link and make sense of it. Seriously.

@dixongexpat @normat42 @marykatefain
Okay, you are living proof that vegans can be complete assholes. Bye.

I could explain it to you but you obviously would not be interested. Who said anything about rational or sane? Grow up.

@dixongexpat @normat42 @marykatefain
Glenn: Okay, you are living proof that vegans can be complete assholes. Bye.

I could explain it to you but you obviously would not be interested. Who said anything about rational or sane? Grow up.

@ntk @marykatefain I'm not the 'moralizing' kind of vegan. But a 'trap and release' sort of program would at least temporarily solve a problem with social services. Probably nothing to be done about landlords, though.

@ntk @dixongexpat Lol I'm def not saying that this is the "vegan" answer. You just asked about one random thing I told you my best guess and also told you that I have struggled with this exact dilemma. I'm not sure what the best solution is and am open to exploring more ethical solutions. Also depends on each unique situation what would be best for the mouse.

Also, I have been in that situation? Didn't I send you a picture of the house I made for a mouse? Lol

@marykatefain @dixongexpat MK, those two replies were to Glenn, sorry for any confusion.

@marykatefain Do people gradually ease into it veganism? I'm keen on being less of a monster, but convenience and social pressure make it unlikely I'd see it through immediately.

@cbowdon Some people have a long road to veganism, and others go "cold tofu" over night! Personally I started by being vegetarian and then switched to vegan a year later. I think that method tends to work well for a lot of people :)

Other people have tried going vegan for just one month first and seeing how it feels. Most people find that once you get over the initial hump it's not as hard as you'd think!

Do you think you would be able to commit to making a small change first?

@marykatefain Yeah I've actually made my first small changes - cutting dairy out of my diet and switching to more animal-welfare-friendly brands. But I'm aware that's a long way off veganism.

I'm happy to hear other people take time to change lifestyle, makes me feel less like I'm doing it half-arsed and more like a work in progress. ๐Ÿ™‚

@cbowdon Totally! Tbh we are all always a work in progress. I would say to be careful because it is easier to slip backwards when you have taken less of a strong stance, I think, but as long as you are committed to moving forward I think it can work!

Maybe try setting a timeline for yourself with clear goals to get you there? And have someone hold you accountable! It's hardest to make a change when you feel alone in it. Community is so important!

@marykatefain @cbowdon oh, it was a pretty long road for me. I tried to go vegetarian at least for a few times in 4 years but failed for various reasons (from pressure to health). This time I slowly removed meat from my diet, then cheese, then other dairy. Every time you change something please check how you feel and make sure you get enough Ferrum and vitamins.

@cbowdon @charlag I'm glad you finally had success!! The path is so different for everyone ๐Ÿ’š

@marykatefain hello! I am a vegan for a few months but I struggle to find more vegans to share my experience. Do you know anyone to follow?

@charlag Yeah! @alex @frankencute and @vegandissonance off the top of my head! Also pretty much the entire instance hahaha ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚ You can def always talk to me, too! Community is so important ๐Ÿ’™

Where do you live? Do you have many vegan friends IRL?

@marykatefain thank you very much for the shoutout, sister โ˜ป
ใƒฝ(๏ผพโ–ฝ๏ผพ)ไบบ(๏ผพโ–ฝ๏ผพ)๏พ‰ high five!

@marykatefain how about stop hurting plants? they're also living beings.